thankgod
06-03 08:23 AM
Sukanya Roy is America's spelling bee champion | Sukanya Roy | 2011 Scripps National Spelling Bee | Indian Express (http://expressbuzz.com/world/sukanya-roy-is-americas-spelling-bee-champion/280779.html)
WASHINGTON: Spelling tongue twister "cymotrichous", Greek for having wavy hair, Indian American Sukanya Roy has won the 2011 Scripps National Spelling Bee crown to retain the coveted honour for the community for the fourth year in a row.
Roy, 14, an eighth-grader at Abington Heights Middle School, Pennsylvania, said she knew as soon as she heard "cymotrichous" that she'd get the word right and win the championship Thursday night.
"My heart started pounding, I guess," she said. "I couldn't believe it. . It's just amazing. It's hard to put into words."
It was Roy's third trip to the national spelling bee, and she had credited her past experience with keeping her calm and relaxed heading into the finals. She tied for 12th place in 2009 and 20th place in 2010.
Roy speaks Bengali and every summer travels to India to visit family. She hopes to pursue a career in international relations.
Roy is the ninth Indian-American in the last 13 years, a run that began when Nupur Lala captured the crown in 1999 and was later featured in the documentary "Spellbound."
The winner will be awarded a $30,000 cash prize, a trophy, a $2,500 US savings bond, a complete reference library, a $5,000 scholarship and $2,600 in reference works and other prizes.
Anamika Veeramani had scored a hat-trick for Indian-Americans in taking the crown last year.
Roy was one of the six Indian Americans - Sriram Hathwar, Arvind Mahankali, Prakash Mishra, Mashad Arora, and Dhivya Senthil Murugan - who made it to the last 13 in the finals.
The youngest finalist was 10-year-old Dhivya Murugan of Denver, who was born in India.
The spelling bee kids just keep getting better and better. Even words like chlorthalidone," "dreikanter," "renminbi" and "helichrysum" couldn't sufficiently narrow down the field in the semifinals, which needed 95 minutes of overtime earlier Thursday to whittle the competitors from 41 to 13.
The week began with 275 spellers. A written test Tuesday and two oral rounds Wednesday reduced the field for the semifinals.
According to the Scripps Spelling Bee's website, this year brought contenders ranging in age from 8 to 15 years old from all over the world.
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GCANDGC
Who cares man ?
This is not a news portal. This is meant for Eb2 and Eb3 to be current.
Let us sknow if sukanya roy can help us to make Eb2 and Eb3 current.
WASHINGTON: Spelling tongue twister "cymotrichous", Greek for having wavy hair, Indian American Sukanya Roy has won the 2011 Scripps National Spelling Bee crown to retain the coveted honour for the community for the fourth year in a row.
Roy, 14, an eighth-grader at Abington Heights Middle School, Pennsylvania, said she knew as soon as she heard "cymotrichous" that she'd get the word right and win the championship Thursday night.
"My heart started pounding, I guess," she said. "I couldn't believe it. . It's just amazing. It's hard to put into words."
It was Roy's third trip to the national spelling bee, and she had credited her past experience with keeping her calm and relaxed heading into the finals. She tied for 12th place in 2009 and 20th place in 2010.
Roy speaks Bengali and every summer travels to India to visit family. She hopes to pursue a career in international relations.
Roy is the ninth Indian-American in the last 13 years, a run that began when Nupur Lala captured the crown in 1999 and was later featured in the documentary "Spellbound."
The winner will be awarded a $30,000 cash prize, a trophy, a $2,500 US savings bond, a complete reference library, a $5,000 scholarship and $2,600 in reference works and other prizes.
Anamika Veeramani had scored a hat-trick for Indian-Americans in taking the crown last year.
Roy was one of the six Indian Americans - Sriram Hathwar, Arvind Mahankali, Prakash Mishra, Mashad Arora, and Dhivya Senthil Murugan - who made it to the last 13 in the finals.
The youngest finalist was 10-year-old Dhivya Murugan of Denver, who was born in India.
The spelling bee kids just keep getting better and better. Even words like chlorthalidone," "dreikanter," "renminbi" and "helichrysum" couldn't sufficiently narrow down the field in the semifinals, which needed 95 minutes of overtime earlier Thursday to whittle the competitors from 41 to 13.
The week began with 275 spellers. A written test Tuesday and two oral rounds Wednesday reduced the field for the semifinals.
According to the Scripps Spelling Bee's website, this year brought contenders ranging in age from 8 to 15 years old from all over the world.
-----------------
GCANDGC
Who cares man ?
This is not a news portal. This is meant for Eb2 and Eb3 to be current.
Let us sknow if sukanya roy can help us to make Eb2 and Eb3 current.
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swamy
12-11 09:24 PM
i am not sure if any one of you has tried donating blood in the US, i have, and have been refused a couple of time for reasons ranging from
you have been to india too recently, need 12 months of continued presence in the US
to
our records show that last year India had an outbreak of Malaria and unfortunately you mentioned that you were in India then...
right you shouldnt have travelled in the past 12 mths - otherwise its fine. i've done it a couple of times
you have been to india too recently, need 12 months of continued presence in the US
to
our records show that last year India had an outbreak of Malaria and unfortunately you mentioned that you were in India then...
right you shouldnt have travelled in the past 12 mths - otherwise its fine. i've done it a couple of times
.jpg "Diaz-Caught without Makeup")
dixie
04-25 09:22 PM
for any points based system to be beneficial to the EB community, the per-country caps have to be eliminated. Imagine the rush of applications from retrogressed countries if a points based system were to be put in place - its bad enough now with all the labor certification and other hoops to jump through. Neither the anti-immigrant lobbies nor the corporate lobbies would ever support such a system - The anti-immigrants because they dont want potentially unlimited immigration, the corporates because they just "love" guest worker programs.
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suresh.emails
12-12 10:16 AM
When we conducted D.C. rally, there were roughly 1500 people attended. Each member has his/her own reason for not attending the rally.
The reasons could be, taking a day off from work or to far from their place etc..,
As a first step��..:)
Why don�t we plan for rally on the same day, same time at various major cities? This would enable members to attend in their respective cities.
We knew that, we are 25K+ members strong and can hold rallies/protests, where we have (major cities) at least 100+ members.
We must invite media and local US leader�s for rally and show our strength and request them to work towards the Green Cards.
Why don�t we plan for a rally during the this Christmas season?
The reasons could be, taking a day off from work or to far from their place etc..,
As a first step��..:)
Why don�t we plan for rally on the same day, same time at various major cities? This would enable members to attend in their respective cities.
We knew that, we are 25K+ members strong and can hold rallies/protests, where we have (major cities) at least 100+ members.
We must invite media and local US leader�s for rally and show our strength and request them to work towards the Green Cards.
Why don�t we plan for a rally during the this Christmas season?
more...
prem_goel
08-02 04:04 PM
well there will always be certain exceptions everywhere....Michael Aytes did mention it publicly when he testified before congress in his document below
http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/I...as_30Apr08.pdf
he does mention that all these applications will be pre-adjudicated just short of visa number. So officially in my opinion they will not go back to these applications unless there is an exceptional condition which makes them do it. I can safely say that broadly it's not gonna happen.
http://www.uscis.gov/files/article/I...as_30Apr08.pdf
he does mention that all these applications will be pre-adjudicated just short of visa number. So officially in my opinion they will not go back to these applications unless there is an exceptional condition which makes them do it. I can safely say that broadly it's not gonna happen.
desi3933
02-02 01:59 PM
I'm also going to do a FOIA request for my I-140 that got approved in Jan 08. Employer is saying its their petition and they wont share it. I'm not going into argument because they revoke it now - The Legal Immigration system is too weak and too much lopsided to a "employer" rather than on the "individual employee"
I know during a PD porting to another AC21 employer this approval notice is sufficient even if the I-140 is revoked but my doubt is if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
>> if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
No, I-140 must be active in order to extend H1-B beyond 6 years.
____________________
Not a legal advice.
US Citizen of Indian Origin
I know during a PD porting to another AC21 employer this approval notice is sufficient even if the I-140 is revoked but my doubt is if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
>> if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
No, I-140 must be active in order to extend H1-B beyond 6 years.
____________________
Not a legal advice.
US Citizen of Indian Origin
more...
chanduv23
02-23 01:08 PM
My lawyer advised against filing AC21 proactively. His opinion is that it may trigger a big RFE requiring financial details of the new employer. How true is this? I have a feeling my previous employer might withdraw my approved I-140 on the advice of their corporate lawyers (Fragomen, who I believe recommend I-140 withdrawal as past of their standard procedure when an employee leaves). I would like to preempt that and file AC21 documentation.
Yes, most Attorneys advise against proactive filing primarily because AC21 has no formal process associated like form, fee, reciepting or standard. It is based on guidance, most times the AC21 docs may or may not reach your file.
Some Attorneys advise the HR to proactively file for AC21. There is one company (huge) where when you are being offered a job on EAD after AC21 - the HR dept makes a big fuss - asks for all documents like copy if Labor, 140, 485 reciept any any other documents and then makes you sign G 28 and then file for a G28 change in Attorney and associate AC21 docs with those. I guess, the Attorneys charge money so it is a business. If RFE or denial - then more money.
My recomendation is to hire a ethical and realistic lawyer and not a greedy one
Yes, most Attorneys advise against proactive filing primarily because AC21 has no formal process associated like form, fee, reciepting or standard. It is based on guidance, most times the AC21 docs may or may not reach your file.
Some Attorneys advise the HR to proactively file for AC21. There is one company (huge) where when you are being offered a job on EAD after AC21 - the HR dept makes a big fuss - asks for all documents like copy if Labor, 140, 485 reciept any any other documents and then makes you sign G 28 and then file for a G28 change in Attorney and associate AC21 docs with those. I guess, the Attorneys charge money so it is a business. If RFE or denial - then more money.
My recomendation is to hire a ethical and realistic lawyer and not a greedy one
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hebbar77
05-02 08:53 PM
For upper middle class, OBC shouldn't matter much since you can afford to enroll your children in private schools and have them work in private sector once they reach an appropriate age. If they are US citizens, they can come back to the US anytime for education and/or employment.
Talking of reservation and discrimination, what legal immigrants are facing in this country is not much different in my opinion. You can't even get your driver's license easily, let alone permanent residence. Most of us are here by choice even though we face all these issues in our daily life.
Maverick_2008
have you tried any of this? or are you willing to!?
Talking of reservation and discrimination, what legal immigrants are facing in this country is not much different in my opinion. You can't even get your driver's license easily, let alone permanent residence. Most of us are here by choice even though we face all these issues in our daily life.
Maverick_2008
have you tried any of this? or are you willing to!?
more...
best_mode
07-20 05:52 PM
See link to senate rule (particularly, Rule No. 4).
http://rules.senate.gov/senaterules/rule16.php
Cornyn's amendment is "general legislation" seeking to amend an "appropriations bill". To be able to vote on Cornyn's amendment, 60 Senators have to vote to waive Rule No. 4. Only then can the senate vote on Cornyn's "general legislation".
Sorry to flog a dead horse but the Dems should not be blamed; if they had voted to waive the Rule, then all sorts of general amendments would have been offered by others and tough to cast aside.
On the other hand, it is useful to know that more than a handful repubs support this amendment; this could be handy in an actual vote when Sessions or his ilk seeks to filibuster the amendment. We may have 60 votes to win cloture.
http://rules.senate.gov/senaterules/rule16.php
Cornyn's amendment is "general legislation" seeking to amend an "appropriations bill". To be able to vote on Cornyn's amendment, 60 Senators have to vote to waive Rule No. 4. Only then can the senate vote on Cornyn's "general legislation".
Sorry to flog a dead horse but the Dems should not be blamed; if they had voted to waive the Rule, then all sorts of general amendments would have been offered by others and tough to cast aside.
On the other hand, it is useful to know that more than a handful repubs support this amendment; this could be handy in an actual vote when Sessions or his ilk seeks to filibuster the amendment. We may have 60 votes to win cloture.
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sheela
09-22 02:44 PM
----
Ok, now that you have negated all ideas from other people, we anxiously wait for your ideas :)
I am sure you are not just some reactive person who can only criticize but can also provide us with a solution.
Lets hear em.
This is easy, practical and may be more effective.
Co-ordinate working round-the-clock (24 hours non-stop) wherever, in whatever organization/immigation community is working.Let it be coast-to-coast. let the work start as usual on friday morning at 8am and end at 8.am on saturday. Employers will be happy and we can win enormous support. Send simultaneous cards to uscis/law makers.
Ok, now that you have negated all ideas from other people, we anxiously wait for your ideas :)
I am sure you are not just some reactive person who can only criticize but can also provide us with a solution.
Lets hear em.
This is easy, practical and may be more effective.
Co-ordinate working round-the-clock (24 hours non-stop) wherever, in whatever organization/immigation community is working.Let it be coast-to-coast. let the work start as usual on friday morning at 8am and end at 8.am on saturday. Employers will be happy and we can win enormous support. Send simultaneous cards to uscis/law makers.
more...
iv_only_hope
08-15 04:58 PM
Friends I need an opinion regarding my wifes situation. She is currently on H4. She was on H1B before some time back which she had stamped in India itself. That H1B expired. She moved back to India. After 5 years now she applied for new H1B and got it in the quota. When the dates advanced we applied for her EAD. We were hoping to get it in 60-70 days. Now its been 75 days at TSC and no signs of approval. She had job offer based on EAD since we thought might as well use that. Now we are thinking she should get her H1B stamped because we dont know when her EAD will get approved. For that do you think going to Canada for stamping is safe. She has a Bachelors degree from India. Or do you think going to India only is thesafe option. Mainly I asked was I did some search and found out that its safest in Canada if you have US/Canadian Degree. Is that true or I am wrong and its safe for everyone. Thanks.
Amar
Amar
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rsrikant
06-23 04:07 PM
dilip and everyone,
i have couple of questions.
1. currently i am on H1 and my wife started using EAD. First time i applied EAD and AP for both myself and my wife. Now, i don't want to renew my EAD but just renew my wife's EAD. Is this ok? What happens to my EAD after it expires. Will i be able to renew it in future or will i be able to apply for a fresh EAD based on my pending 485 with out a problem? what will be my status if i renew my wife's EAD alone with out renewing mine. will i still be on valid h1?
2. Similarly, i don't want to renew my AP as well as i have valid stamping for next 2 years. Is it fine to just renew my wife's AP alone? Will i be able to apply for a fresh AP in future based on my pending 485? wat will be my status if i renew my wife's AP alone?
3. Last time when i applied EAD and AP along with my 485 in Aug 2007, my application got transferred to Vermont from texas. i received EAD, AP from Vermont and then my 485 got transferred back to texas. For renewal of EAD & AP, shall i send applications to vermont or texas?
Answers to my questions are really appreciated. Thanks in advance for taking time to read and respond to my queries.
~Srikanth
i have couple of questions.
1. currently i am on H1 and my wife started using EAD. First time i applied EAD and AP for both myself and my wife. Now, i don't want to renew my EAD but just renew my wife's EAD. Is this ok? What happens to my EAD after it expires. Will i be able to renew it in future or will i be able to apply for a fresh EAD based on my pending 485 with out a problem? what will be my status if i renew my wife's EAD alone with out renewing mine. will i still be on valid h1?
2. Similarly, i don't want to renew my AP as well as i have valid stamping for next 2 years. Is it fine to just renew my wife's AP alone? Will i be able to apply for a fresh AP in future based on my pending 485? wat will be my status if i renew my wife's AP alone?
3. Last time when i applied EAD and AP along with my 485 in Aug 2007, my application got transferred to Vermont from texas. i received EAD, AP from Vermont and then my 485 got transferred back to texas. For renewal of EAD & AP, shall i send applications to vermont or texas?
Answers to my questions are really appreciated. Thanks in advance for taking time to read and respond to my queries.
~Srikanth
more...
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girishvar
07-13 06:42 PM
Greetings! I have been watching the flower campaign after I got the email last night in IV news letter. While We are extremely happy getting the media coverage we needed, we are ignoring one thing. There is one more important issue that we are missing here. USINPAC is rapidly claiming that they are behind this whole thing. This is more than plaigarism. some of you might say that this is not some thing as we should be considered about media attention as our primary issue amidst of this whole thing, but this can come back hurting if USINPAC starts claiming the credit in more sites. If they go beyond the cliff, they will do their own press release to claim credit and it gets more messier at that point. If you look at their press releases, they clearly denied us any credit by refering to the org as Emigration voice. I am positive reporters across the worls know the difference between Immigration and Emigration and whether people from India immigrate to US or emigrate to US. I feel that this is deliberately denying any google search for IV
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070710/48/6hwnn.html
I am going to call them first thing tomorrow morning and explain them to clearly give credit to Immigration Voice (with clear spelling) for the flower campaign. Other wise, may be we should consider doing a press release on the same. We do not need to get impolite with them and use harsh words. We can convey one single message like we did today with the flower campaign. Hopefully some one like logiclife/pappu can come up with one consistent message to be delivered when we call USINPAC
I know Robinder Personally for a long time. He is Championing the cause of Ind0-US affairs with his headquarters in India. He is also the very senior columnist and well respected media person in Delhi. Being a Bachelor and previous personal assistant of Rajiv Gandhi, when he was a PM, he has never entered politics and very honest altruistic man. Calling him a fraud should be incorrect.
I have personally spoken to him in Last fortnight several times and create a campaign for immigration issue in Indian media. Personally on my request he has taken up this issue. He has very great regard for Immigration voice and told me to join as the volunteer of IV. He never misrepresents for any fame, and he has been quoted by Indian Media on any US affairs. Indian Media does not have a clue to diiffrentiate between USINPAC and IV. He never have any malicious intent against IV and does not require any personal credit. I have not spoken to him after reading this posting and I will again post my reply after talking to him.
Three years ago myself and Robinder met with US consulate general in India and requested for working on making E-1 and E-2 visas available to Indians by creating an envirnment to make India as the Treaty country. Eventhough we have a long way to go still periodically he is pushing this initiative out of India.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070710/48/6hwnn.html
I am going to call them first thing tomorrow morning and explain them to clearly give credit to Immigration Voice (with clear spelling) for the flower campaign. Other wise, may be we should consider doing a press release on the same. We do not need to get impolite with them and use harsh words. We can convey one single message like we did today with the flower campaign. Hopefully some one like logiclife/pappu can come up with one consistent message to be delivered when we call USINPAC
I know Robinder Personally for a long time. He is Championing the cause of Ind0-US affairs with his headquarters in India. He is also the very senior columnist and well respected media person in Delhi. Being a Bachelor and previous personal assistant of Rajiv Gandhi, when he was a PM, he has never entered politics and very honest altruistic man. Calling him a fraud should be incorrect.
I have personally spoken to him in Last fortnight several times and create a campaign for immigration issue in Indian media. Personally on my request he has taken up this issue. He has very great regard for Immigration voice and told me to join as the volunteer of IV. He never misrepresents for any fame, and he has been quoted by Indian Media on any US affairs. Indian Media does not have a clue to diiffrentiate between USINPAC and IV. He never have any malicious intent against IV and does not require any personal credit. I have not spoken to him after reading this posting and I will again post my reply after talking to him.
Three years ago myself and Robinder met with US consulate general in India and requested for working on making E-1 and E-2 visas available to Indians by creating an envirnment to make India as the Treaty country. Eventhough we have a long way to go still periodically he is pushing this initiative out of India.
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Student with no hopes
02-02 09:18 AM
Is it not possible to make the copy of the application when you have to sign it? Will the alien # not be there on the application?
Forgive me for my ignorance..
Forgive me for my ignorance..
more...
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mjdup
03-01 09:37 AM
Made my second contribution last week.
Some of my utility bills and credit card companies did mistakes and overcharged me so all that credit coming back to me is on its way to IV !
Please $100 is not a lot folks, we definitely are not on minimum wage - look at the illegal immigrant forums, they are on minimum wages and they seem to be pitching more !
We can do this ! I just think about the core team in DC spending time and money for everyone so the least we can do is open our wallet, please, please, please !!
Some of my utility bills and credit card companies did mistakes and overcharged me so all that credit coming back to me is on its way to IV !
Please $100 is not a lot folks, we definitely are not on minimum wage - look at the illegal immigrant forums, they are on minimum wages and they seem to be pitching more !
We can do this ! I just think about the core team in DC spending time and money for everyone so the least we can do is open our wallet, please, please, please !!
dresses Posted in trisha | No Comments
gc_on_demand
09-23 01:09 PM
Yes it is at 1PM EST. Do you guys know if they are done with the horse bill? If they are done then it should just say 5882 and nurse bill. But schedule shows that they wil continue to work on horse bill as well...
From past couple hearings it seems like not EST but UGST (US Govt Std. Time ).. Eureka... I just discovered new time zone. I am working on to get patent on it.. Please dont run to Patent office.
From past couple hearings it seems like not EST but UGST (US Govt Std. Time ).. Eureka... I just discovered new time zone. I am working on to get patent on it.. Please dont run to Patent office.
more...
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bbct
06-28 08:21 AM
I have H1-b petition approval but i dont have h1-I-94 card.
Is it legal to work without h1-I-94 Card?
Do i need to travel out side of country ?
Is it legal to work without h1-I-94 Card?
Do i need to travel out side of country ?
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homerli
08-11 09:13 AM
You don't need to worry.
Your PD will be current in Oct or Nov for sure. With the current way of USCIS handling visas, there will be no big retrogress or big advance. Oct bulletin will stay the same or move forward.
Very Disappointment for me.....as i missed it with couple of days.
Visa Bulletin for September 2010 (http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_5113.html)
I'm not sure if they are going to move dates in Oct or not...
Your PD will be current in Oct or Nov for sure. With the current way of USCIS handling visas, there will be no big retrogress or big advance. Oct bulletin will stay the same or move forward.
Very Disappointment for me.....as i missed it with couple of days.
Visa Bulletin for September 2010 (http://travel.state.gov/visa/bulletin/bulletin_5113.html)
I'm not sure if they are going to move dates in Oct or not...
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newbie2020
09-08 10:31 AM
Generally most companies are comfortable doing a 1099 on Corp to Corp than doing a 1099 with an individual. In both cases it is 1099 and company pays $$ as agreed.
There is one major difference why companies want to do business with consulting firms rather than individuals as the perception is when doing business with a firm as opposed to individual you deal with so many people (not just one) who share the responsibilities. If for some reason things don't work with the consultant the company can request the consulting firm to provide substitute so on so forth.
Also firms are perceived financially Strong, can afford $3M+ insurance (just in case something goes wrong) while individual may not be in similar position
it is always better to go with a Consulting firm rather than going individually (Pros certainly outweigh all the cons)
If you have a GC you can incorporate your own company and work ( If you are ready to take additional headache, If not better work for a consulting firm)
There is one major difference why companies want to do business with consulting firms rather than individuals as the perception is when doing business with a firm as opposed to individual you deal with so many people (not just one) who share the responsibilities. If for some reason things don't work with the consultant the company can request the consulting firm to provide substitute so on so forth.
Also firms are perceived financially Strong, can afford $3M+ insurance (just in case something goes wrong) while individual may not be in similar position
it is always better to go with a Consulting firm rather than going individually (Pros certainly outweigh all the cons)
If you have a GC you can incorporate your own company and work ( If you are ready to take additional headache, If not better work for a consulting firm)
amitga
08-25 04:03 PM
The poll shows that there are substantial number of cases from Yr 2004 or earlier. This shows that the Dates will be going back in October Visa bulletin. If the number of applications are 50 times of the polled numbers, then also it will take 2-3 years to clear the Yr 2004 and earlier applications.
sorcerer666
04-19 01:08 PM
What can Obama do when most of the Republicans are dead against the immigration reform. They didn't allow their own party president to pass the CIR. Do you think they will allow Obama to do it?
He won't be able to pass any new laws anymore, they can't even agree on a budget. Forget any other controversial topic. BUT , when he ran for the office, he had promised to fix "the broken immigration system" within the first year of his office. He hasn't kept many of his major promises and is highly doubtful to get re-elected if the Republicans have a strong candidate(disclaimer: Trump isn't a strong candidate)
We're bound to be in this rut for a very long time if we want to stay here!
He won't be able to pass any new laws anymore, they can't even agree on a budget. Forget any other controversial topic. BUT , when he ran for the office, he had promised to fix "the broken immigration system" within the first year of his office. He hasn't kept many of his major promises and is highly doubtful to get re-elected if the Republicans have a strong candidate(disclaimer: Trump isn't a strong candidate)
We're bound to be in this rut for a very long time if we want to stay here!
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