tonyHK12
11-11 05:13 PM
Agree with you Tony - there are so many members of this forum - I find it hard to believe that everyone's budget is so tight, that they cannot afford to divert $25 per-month to a cause that is going to help them directly.
I would rather NOT believe that most people here are with a free-loader mentality - waiting for others to fund and drive the momentum, while they just keep yapping about their problems and concerns about the situation, laws, regulations, illegals, employers etc. etc.
Yes but empirical evidence points to the contrary - About 100 something donors out of 45000
Some persons have trust issues with sending money to IV.
Guys Immigration voice is a non-profit, and as core group mentioned in their video, people can be arrested for misusing funds. The annual reports for previous years are available.
Immigration Voice funds disclosure on Yahoo! Video (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/234998/1863489)
In my opinion people are missing the big picture of that if everyone contributed, there could be significant momentum that could be created - a $25 per-month contribution could lead to a $500K monthly lobbying fund - which is a non-trivial amount to drive our agenda.
Yes people need to learn that we are small in number and need everyone to support each others cause. Even 5 bucks a month from everyone is enough to achieve the dream - average lunch money. Sometimes I'm surprised we're dealing with high skilled immigrants here.
While almost everyone has been in a situation of spending hundreds of dollars in immigration fees. I paid $1000 6 months back for premium processing.
Some people have experienced old corruption in Indian politics and think things are the same here. I assure you its not.
So whats the next excuse going to be now? laziness or boredom?
I would rather NOT believe that most people here are with a free-loader mentality - waiting for others to fund and drive the momentum, while they just keep yapping about their problems and concerns about the situation, laws, regulations, illegals, employers etc. etc.
Yes but empirical evidence points to the contrary - About 100 something donors out of 45000
Some persons have trust issues with sending money to IV.
Guys Immigration voice is a non-profit, and as core group mentioned in their video, people can be arrested for misusing funds. The annual reports for previous years are available.
Immigration Voice funds disclosure on Yahoo! Video (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/234998/1863489)
In my opinion people are missing the big picture of that if everyone contributed, there could be significant momentum that could be created - a $25 per-month contribution could lead to a $500K monthly lobbying fund - which is a non-trivial amount to drive our agenda.
Yes people need to learn that we are small in number and need everyone to support each others cause. Even 5 bucks a month from everyone is enough to achieve the dream - average lunch money. Sometimes I'm surprised we're dealing with high skilled immigrants here.
While almost everyone has been in a situation of spending hundreds of dollars in immigration fees. I paid $1000 6 months back for premium processing.
Some people have experienced old corruption in Indian politics and think things are the same here. I assure you its not.
So whats the next excuse going to be now? laziness or boredom?
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24fps
02-27 06:12 PM
It is evident to anyone following this thread who hijacked it. I was only responding to the OP when you came here with your crappy comments about how people should not enforce personal morals on drug traffickers.
Why don't you explain to everyone how is telling the OP that we do not condone taking or selling drugs something of a personal opinion?
If your next post does not address the issue, then we all know who the real immature person is. Unless you have an answer, I will consider this case closed.
I am not answerable to an anonymous "internet toughie" who picks up fights on forums. it's evident that your understanding of the tonality in a professional response vis a vis a personal one is impaired albeit imponderable.
I shall not waste my time "coaching" the same.
[B]"then we all know who the real immature person is"
After your fiasco with Kumar, doesn't this whole forum apart from a few thousand scandalized visitors know who really enthrones "immaturity" here?
With this i end my diatribe with you mr internet toughie aka sledgehammer. lol
Why don't you explain to everyone how is telling the OP that we do not condone taking or selling drugs something of a personal opinion?
If your next post does not address the issue, then we all know who the real immature person is. Unless you have an answer, I will consider this case closed.
I am not answerable to an anonymous "internet toughie" who picks up fights on forums. it's evident that your understanding of the tonality in a professional response vis a vis a personal one is impaired albeit imponderable.
I shall not waste my time "coaching" the same.
[B]"then we all know who the real immature person is"
After your fiasco with Kumar, doesn't this whole forum apart from a few thousand scandalized visitors know who really enthrones "immaturity" here?
With this i end my diatribe with you mr internet toughie aka sledgehammer. lol
ramaonline
08-27 09:44 PM
You must send 2 photos when you file I131 online - This link has all details
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b3be194d3e88d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCR D&vgnextchannel=9059d9808bcbd010VgnVCM100000d1f1d6a1 RCRD
The mailing address can be found in the confirmation receipt
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=b3be194d3e88d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCR D&vgnextchannel=9059d9808bcbd010VgnVCM100000d1f1d6a1 RCRD
The mailing address can be found in the confirmation receipt
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forever
08-06 09:10 PM
It looks like USCIS has deployed the same random selection program, used for new H1B selection, to process I-485 applications.:(
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franklin
08-31 08:11 PM
I can help take some stuff - how much is there?
I would offer to carry the flag, but I have Carpal Tunnel, so it might not be a great idea :)
I would offer to carry the flag, but I have Carpal Tunnel, so it might not be a great idea :)
purgan
12-13 05:04 PM
As a precursor to abolishing labor substitution next year, USCIS is increasing its scrutiny of substituted labor. Also there is rampant fraud in labor substituions.
I was reading somewhere that USCIS rejection rate of labor sub is 85% higher than in orginal labor. That is a significant percentage, if you ask me. Make your own decision but be very wary of promises.
I was reading somewhere that USCIS rejection rate of labor sub is 85% higher than in orginal labor. That is a significant percentage, if you ask me. Make your own decision but be very wary of promises.
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bajrangbali
05-18 09:26 PM
For a moment, leave the IIT/merit/experience arguments aside...fact is US graduate schools get taxpayer funds...and one way or other students graduating in US get benefit from those taxes. Senators do not want their tax $$ investments to leave the country...that only is the reason they did something for US graduates in H1...this separate quota may or may not fly...as there is no direct benefit for US...stay on H1B and pay taxes good for usa :cool:
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madhu345
05-22 03:59 PM
Very sad to see this coming from the Core Member...Are we losing hope here, is that the game plan are we looking after putting tremondous effort for all these years?
Here is what you do if the bill passes without amendments:
Get some sun-tan. Wear a baseball cap. Put in jeans with oil stains and bad quality collarless t-shirt. Grow an untrimmed mustache. Lose the dress shoes and wear cheap jogging shoes.
Go to the nearest USCIS office (after this bill passes) and say that you have been working off-books illegally at a nearby restaurant since 5 years and now you would like to apply for Z visa.
They will give you a probationary that will work like an EAD card (maybe better quality than EAD with it being tamper proof and wear proof). In the meantime, once the borders are closed and certain benchmarks are met, you will get Z visa with Advanced parole to replace your probationary card. With that advanced parole you can travel outside and come back in guaranteed (Guaranteed return due to AP). When outside you can file for GC, visit your parents and relatives, spend a few days in vacation and come back with full freedom to work anywhere without LCA restrictions and enjoy the Z visa that you can renew on your own (no need for employer sponsor).
They will give GC to all Z visa applicants within 5 years thru supplemental increase in GC (based on survey done by DHS). The annual cap will be total Z visa holders divided by 20%. If there are 11 million illegals who end up getting Z visa, the annual cap will be 2.2 million.
That 2.2 million beats the hell out of the 140,000 we have today for legal skilled immigrants or the 90,000 we will have with this new bill.
Advantages:
1. No need to comply to speciality occupation. Work in any line of work.
2. No need to get labor cert for GC.
3. No need to depend on employer for temp visas like H1B and GC sponsorship.
4. More travel flexibility due to advanced parole that comes with Z visa.
Here is what you do if the bill passes without amendments:
Get some sun-tan. Wear a baseball cap. Put in jeans with oil stains and bad quality collarless t-shirt. Grow an untrimmed mustache. Lose the dress shoes and wear cheap jogging shoes.
Go to the nearest USCIS office (after this bill passes) and say that you have been working off-books illegally at a nearby restaurant since 5 years and now you would like to apply for Z visa.
They will give you a probationary that will work like an EAD card (maybe better quality than EAD with it being tamper proof and wear proof). In the meantime, once the borders are closed and certain benchmarks are met, you will get Z visa with Advanced parole to replace your probationary card. With that advanced parole you can travel outside and come back in guaranteed (Guaranteed return due to AP). When outside you can file for GC, visit your parents and relatives, spend a few days in vacation and come back with full freedom to work anywhere without LCA restrictions and enjoy the Z visa that you can renew on your own (no need for employer sponsor).
They will give GC to all Z visa applicants within 5 years thru supplemental increase in GC (based on survey done by DHS). The annual cap will be total Z visa holders divided by 20%. If there are 11 million illegals who end up getting Z visa, the annual cap will be 2.2 million.
That 2.2 million beats the hell out of the 140,000 we have today for legal skilled immigrants or the 90,000 we will have with this new bill.
Advantages:
1. No need to comply to speciality occupation. Work in any line of work.
2. No need to get labor cert for GC.
3. No need to depend on employer for temp visas like H1B and GC sponsorship.
4. More travel flexibility due to advanced parole that comes with Z visa.
more...
onemorecame
01-04 11:53 AM
In India religious minorities have the rights to their own personal laws. I believe the Muslim personal law allows Muslims in India to have more than 1 wife.
Yes you are right
Yes you are right
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gc28262
03-11 10:45 PM
You are acting paranoid. Let me know what you expect as a reaction to the requirements asked by Consulate-
1. Would you be happy if I say it is not legal for consulate to ask for such documentation?
2. Do you want me to call them names?
3. Would it be better for me to state that they are racially motivated and discriminating against Indians?
4. They should cancel all documentation requirements?
Anyways....I earn 64k per year and I want to take benefit of the mortagage crisis and buy a 900k home. I want the banks to continue with their past practice of providing cheap loans with no down-payment and not a lot of documentation. Would that be a valid demand?
Fellow legal immigrant..what do you think would be result of ICE raids which finds some fraud (I said some not to indicate that it happens in majority cases...it could be less than 1% of all the genuine cases). As software engineers what do we do when we find defects during testing or post production stage? Do we fix it or we try allow it continue?
I dont know what response you are trying to solicit?
All the folks who came here ..in early 19th century didnot have to deals to employment based and family based immgration...hell they just landed and assumed citizenship...but does it mean that we use that as an example as seek citizen ship today? No....rules, laws change over-time..and amendments happen to make it better for the buyer's end.
Are you so powerful to make all these changes ? You don't have to do so many things for me. Just get me a GC. I won't ask for anything else from you.
Take it easy.
1. Would you be happy if I say it is not legal for consulate to ask for such documentation?
2. Do you want me to call them names?
3. Would it be better for me to state that they are racially motivated and discriminating against Indians?
4. They should cancel all documentation requirements?
Anyways....I earn 64k per year and I want to take benefit of the mortagage crisis and buy a 900k home. I want the banks to continue with their past practice of providing cheap loans with no down-payment and not a lot of documentation. Would that be a valid demand?
Fellow legal immigrant..what do you think would be result of ICE raids which finds some fraud (I said some not to indicate that it happens in majority cases...it could be less than 1% of all the genuine cases). As software engineers what do we do when we find defects during testing or post production stage? Do we fix it or we try allow it continue?
I dont know what response you are trying to solicit?
All the folks who came here ..in early 19th century didnot have to deals to employment based and family based immgration...hell they just landed and assumed citizenship...but does it mean that we use that as an example as seek citizen ship today? No....rules, laws change over-time..and amendments happen to make it better for the buyer's end.
Are you so powerful to make all these changes ? You don't have to do so many things for me. Just get me a GC. I won't ask for anything else from you.
Take it easy.
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imm_pro
06-13 01:12 PM
Guys if you have already called..please ask ur spouse or request ur friends to make the call..every call counts..
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cagedcactus
04-16 03:17 PM
The experience would have to be before the labor filing, in order for it to count. I suggest that you should talk to 3-4 attorneys and get the best possible approach.
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rkotamurthy
08-28 01:20 PM
I am going to DC to participate in the Rally and meet Lawmakers. I know atleast half a dozen others from California who are going to DC. I think is your only chance to get your voice heard in the corridors of power.
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svr_76
03-11 05:17 PM
I find the requirements for H/L visa at Hyderabad quite legit.
Asking employer (petitioners) last 2 years tax filing records + State Unemployment Wage Report + list of employees ensures that Petitioner really has a job offered ready and is not just a plan shop which would get head-count and hold them on zero/less pay on bench while they find a client.
Currently this is what is happening in certain cases which is considered a fraudulent use of the visa.
As a result of ramped fraud (On bench w/o assignment and not paid salary in full) the consulate is asking for all paystub and bank statements (which would show regular pay check deposits) to prove that petitioner (employer) did really pay regular salary. Otherwise, both petitioner and employee are de-frauding by not paying (employer) and not reporting (employee).
What's wrong in asking these documents?
Asking employer (petitioners) last 2 years tax filing records + State Unemployment Wage Report + list of employees ensures that Petitioner really has a job offered ready and is not just a plan shop which would get head-count and hold them on zero/less pay on bench while they find a client.
Currently this is what is happening in certain cases which is considered a fraudulent use of the visa.
As a result of ramped fraud (On bench w/o assignment and not paid salary in full) the consulate is asking for all paystub and bank statements (which would show regular pay check deposits) to prove that petitioner (employer) did really pay regular salary. Otherwise, both petitioner and employee are de-frauding by not paying (employer) and not reporting (employee).
What's wrong in asking these documents?
more...
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jasguild
07-17 10:34 AM
I agree with everybody on this thread. I agree this solution ( if any) will be a band aid. I also agree the band-aid is needed to prevent the wound from becoming fetid. I agree this may exacerbate problems.
For all these reasons, it is imperative we do not stop after this anouncement. Our long term goal has to be retrogression relief in one form or the other, including all or some of recapture of unused visas, increase in annual quota, resolution of the FBI name chack black hole, and more that able persons in IV can doubtless think of better than yours truly.
I, for one, am going to be a member of IV long after this anouncement.
WELL SAID!!!
The only thing I would like to add is, when we eventually get our GC, lets not forget those behind us!
jasquil
For all these reasons, it is imperative we do not stop after this anouncement. Our long term goal has to be retrogression relief in one form or the other, including all or some of recapture of unused visas, increase in annual quota, resolution of the FBI name chack black hole, and more that able persons in IV can doubtless think of better than yours truly.
I, for one, am going to be a member of IV long after this anouncement.
WELL SAID!!!
The only thing I would like to add is, when we eventually get our GC, lets not forget those behind us!
jasquil
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hotammo
10-29 09:46 AM
As our members get greencards, we are happy for them and wish them good luck for future. Please continue to support Immigrationvoice and visit this site to help others waiting in line. If there are sufficient greencard holder members, we can even take up issues confronting greencard applicants in future.
This thread is to start a discussion and hear experiences from members who have received their greencard. Please write �
- How has greencard changed your life after receiving it?
Not very many things have changed since getting GC but with the economy in turmoil at least I have a little peace of mind that if anything were to happen to my current job, the struggle for another job would be easier (hopefully). -
- What did you do on the day you received it?
Went with my wife to a Moe's
- How did the long wait upset your life?
It did not affect my life too much and it should not as I got my GC within 7 years of my coming to the US, while a lot of my borthers who have been to the US longer than I are still waiting. - How did immigrationvoice help you during this long wait?
IV was like panacea for all immigration related anxieties.- Would you like to continue your support to immigration voice and help others waiting?
Absolutely, thus coming back to IV.
- Any advice for everyone?
Well coming from a person who had to wait relatively less time for GC, this might seem shallow, but I have followed one simple principle in life, perserverence. Also I have planned ahead for the next step before one reaches the finish line as it keeps you motivated to reach higher, become better. So let GC be the goal but not let it stop you from enjoying life.
First step after GC, go to SSN office and get your Social Security card renewed to the one which does not have the line "INS authorization required to work. ANd if you follow Murthy wait at least 6 months before leaving your GC sponsoring employer.
Once anyone received his greencard, please update the IV tracker too. We like to see how many members in IV are greencard holders and what is the current trend of approvals in our membership
http://immigrationvoice.org/index.php?option=com_tracker&Itemid=63
Good luck to all, with wishes for a Happy Diwali and a prosperous New Year.
This thread is to start a discussion and hear experiences from members who have received their greencard. Please write �
- How has greencard changed your life after receiving it?
Not very many things have changed since getting GC but with the economy in turmoil at least I have a little peace of mind that if anything were to happen to my current job, the struggle for another job would be easier (hopefully). -
- What did you do on the day you received it?
Went with my wife to a Moe's
- How did the long wait upset your life?
It did not affect my life too much and it should not as I got my GC within 7 years of my coming to the US, while a lot of my borthers who have been to the US longer than I are still waiting. - How did immigrationvoice help you during this long wait?
IV was like panacea for all immigration related anxieties.- Would you like to continue your support to immigration voice and help others waiting?
Absolutely, thus coming back to IV.
- Any advice for everyone?
Well coming from a person who had to wait relatively less time for GC, this might seem shallow, but I have followed one simple principle in life, perserverence. Also I have planned ahead for the next step before one reaches the finish line as it keeps you motivated to reach higher, become better. So let GC be the goal but not let it stop you from enjoying life.
First step after GC, go to SSN office and get your Social Security card renewed to the one which does not have the line "INS authorization required to work. ANd if you follow Murthy wait at least 6 months before leaving your GC sponsoring employer.
Once anyone received his greencard, please update the IV tracker too. We like to see how many members in IV are greencard holders and what is the current trend of approvals in our membership
http://immigrationvoice.org/index.php?option=com_tracker&Itemid=63
Good luck to all, with wishes for a Happy Diwali and a prosperous New Year.
more...
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dc2007
08-23 04:55 PM
I agree that "It is an irony that most people here who raised valid concerns have "red" reputation". I don't know how it works. I know it doesn't matter but I just added +ve reputaton for ck_b2001 and Lisap.
Anyways, I think the moderators should not forget that this is an open forum also. And it has become popular because of people like us. As of now I am using this site as a forum where I get some info/experience from people like me regardng GC. Its an important thing (to get GC) and a painful process. May be thats why this site/forum has got so many serious members, spending time and sharing their so much personal information.
But to me (its just me), GC is important but not a life/death thing and there are lot of other things which are more important to me other than getting GC. Frankly speaking, I will spend time and money in those other things at this time. May be sometime later when I will be more comfotable and have more exp. with persons here, I might participate actively here too. And I believe lot of others might have similar thoughts.
My point here is that:
1. This is an open forum (like immigrationportal etc.) to discuss/share views/exp about GC process. So let it be like that only. If its not, then I will ask moderators to "please close this open forum".
2. IV is a very good cause, but all of us (affiliates to moderators) and moderators should try to explain this in any way they want but please NOT BE PUSHY, AND ABUSIVE.
3. In this way, who so ever wants more participation, let him/her come forward. But at the same time, if anybody is not convinced or don't want to participate, then let him to do that also. Why PUSH.
Good Luck to all of you
Anyways, I think the moderators should not forget that this is an open forum also. And it has become popular because of people like us. As of now I am using this site as a forum where I get some info/experience from people like me regardng GC. Its an important thing (to get GC) and a painful process. May be thats why this site/forum has got so many serious members, spending time and sharing their so much personal information.
But to me (its just me), GC is important but not a life/death thing and there are lot of other things which are more important to me other than getting GC. Frankly speaking, I will spend time and money in those other things at this time. May be sometime later when I will be more comfotable and have more exp. with persons here, I might participate actively here too. And I believe lot of others might have similar thoughts.
My point here is that:
1. This is an open forum (like immigrationportal etc.) to discuss/share views/exp about GC process. So let it be like that only. If its not, then I will ask moderators to "please close this open forum".
2. IV is a very good cause, but all of us (affiliates to moderators) and moderators should try to explain this in any way they want but please NOT BE PUSHY, AND ABUSIVE.
3. In this way, who so ever wants more participation, let him/her come forward. But at the same time, if anybody is not convinced or don't want to participate, then let him to do that also. Why PUSH.
Good Luck to all of you
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optimystic
10-22 09:46 PM
Are you talking about EB3-I? If not, ignore this post...
EB3-I dates are in Oct 01, there are no cases to approve, what will they approve?
What makes you think they are processing EB2-I more? Same logic applies here. Wait for the next bulletin, if you are EB3-I in 02 you'll get what is long overdue?
I am sure there are bunch of cases with PD < Oct 01. My PD is May 2001.
Something fishy going on. I have already been thru one whole month earlier this year (Apr or May) with my PD being current but my Processing date retrogressed at NSC. And the same this time too. I am planning to take an Info pass once we enter November irrespective of where Processing dates are at. That will be one more whole month with my PD being current and yet no approval received. :mad:
EB3-I dates are in Oct 01, there are no cases to approve, what will they approve?
What makes you think they are processing EB2-I more? Same logic applies here. Wait for the next bulletin, if you are EB3-I in 02 you'll get what is long overdue?
I am sure there are bunch of cases with PD < Oct 01. My PD is May 2001.
Something fishy going on. I have already been thru one whole month earlier this year (Apr or May) with my PD being current but my Processing date retrogressed at NSC. And the same this time too. I am planning to take an Info pass once we enter November irrespective of where Processing dates are at. That will be one more whole month with my PD being current and yet no approval received. :mad:
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kart2007
05-15 03:26 PM
I know many people working here in my city who are from TCS. TCS blatantly breaks rules and sends these people on L1 visas while paying them an Indian salary and a minimal per diem for their time in the U.S. They don't even get enough for renting a car and I see many of these poor guys walking from their apartment blocks to the office. It's good exercise (for one's physical health) but the intent of the company is exploitation and nothing else :mad:
In addition, I notice that many of these recruits are here not for long term jobs but for gaining enough knowledge so that those jobs can be outsourced back to the home country. That has started to make many of my American colleagues really mad. But it's the fault of the company, not these poor guys who don't have seem to have a clue what a bad deal it is until they arrive here.
Sad to say, Wipro, Infosys and the rest in their flock are no better.
Yup, TCS, Infosys, Cognizant, Patni etc are all offenders. Its sad to see L1s getting such a paltry salary.
For H1 there are rules that are laid out for minimum wages but not for L1 (I think). Even then these Indian companies pay the least they have to to H1 visa holders.
In addition, I notice that many of these recruits are here not for long term jobs but for gaining enough knowledge so that those jobs can be outsourced back to the home country. That has started to make many of my American colleagues really mad. But it's the fault of the company, not these poor guys who don't have seem to have a clue what a bad deal it is until they arrive here.
Sad to say, Wipro, Infosys and the rest in their flock are no better.
Yup, TCS, Infosys, Cognizant, Patni etc are all offenders. Its sad to see L1s getting such a paltry salary.
For H1 there are rules that are laid out for minimum wages but not for L1 (I think). Even then these Indian companies pay the least they have to to H1 visa holders.
Sakthisagar
12-07 04:12 PM
I am trying to understand the cause for this huge delay to issue either EAD or AP. Could it be due to a large number of I-485 filers in July 2007 that the agency is unable to handle the volume of requests (either for a new one or renewal)?
Has USCIS come up with any explanation as to why there is lot of delay to issue EAD renewals or new EADs? Could it be the US economy that is causing the drag on the agency?
Laziness of USCIS so called officers and also might is right mentality and of course Corruption in USCIS! believe it or not see this
Immigration Services Homeland Security Department of Justice Ause Blog (http://www.justice-denied.net/Justice_Denied_Editorial.htm)
Corruption is more the rule than the exception!
Has USCIS come up with any explanation as to why there is lot of delay to issue EAD renewals or new EADs? Could it be the US economy that is causing the drag on the agency?
Laziness of USCIS so called officers and also might is right mentality and of course Corruption in USCIS! believe it or not see this
Immigration Services Homeland Security Department of Justice Ause Blog (http://www.justice-denied.net/Justice_Denied_Editorial.htm)
Corruption is more the rule than the exception!
sumanitha
01-12 03:07 PM
Donot take Maternity Card..
It will not be helpful at all..
Instead you can have your negotiations with your Doctor and Hospital.
In Dallas (Las Collinas), if you dont have medical insurance, you can have an arrangement with the Doctor and Hospital.
Like one of my friend paid 3K for everything for Delivery + 5K I think for the hospitals. Ofcourse this is based on the delivery is not complicated / C-section couple of years ago.
Hope this helps.
It will not be helpful at all..
Instead you can have your negotiations with your Doctor and Hospital.
In Dallas (Las Collinas), if you dont have medical insurance, you can have an arrangement with the Doctor and Hospital.
Like one of my friend paid 3K for everything for Delivery + 5K I think for the hospitals. Ofcourse this is based on the delivery is not complicated / C-section couple of years ago.
Hope this helps.
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